My Wife and I actually made it to sacrament meeting yesterday. Now to be fair, we were about 10 minutes late, but we were there and that's what counts - right?
We ended up getting into our seats right as the speakers started.
The first was a young lady I used to teach in Sunday School. I recall it being pretty concise and clear, but I forget what her topic was.
Second came a young man, who I don't really know too well. I recall his talk being pretty short and sweet as well.
Following those first two speakers, they had a musical number. The interesting thing, as Mrs. Koda pointed out, was that it wasn't from either the official Church hymn book, or the official choir book. It's a stupid thing, but to us, it typifies the hypocrisy within the organization.
In our last congregation, no music was allowed from outside of those two books, and it got to the point where the bishop had to personally approve all musical numbers. Not even a slightly different arrangement to a hymn was allowed, because they were "by the book". You could hold up a visual aid during a talk, but heaven help you if you happened to sing a few bars from a non-hymn book song.
The new congregation loves music, from all kinds of books. I'm not even sure if yesterday's performance was from an LDS Church source. It was pretty though. Of course if you whip out a visual aid - well, let's just say that you will be joining me in outer darkness (aka. Mormon Hell) because they too are "By the book", just apparently a different version of the book from the congregation we came from.
Anyway, so following that, the High Councilman got up to speak. By way of explanation for my non-LDS followers. There is a council which has some authority over a group of 8-10 congregations. Once a month, a member of this council will attend a specific congregation and give a talk. They are infamous for being EXCEEEDINGLY long winded and boring, and they usually have rather high opinions of themselves as well.
Yesterday was no exception. He started off by talking about how it was important that we seek for intelligence and mentioned biology, geography, geometry and math and then said that they were actually pretty useless to us in the eternities and instead that we should really only study the gospel, and as I've discussed before, by gospel, he means the doctrines of the LDS Church, and not in fact the Gospel itself.
From there he took us on a rather confusing journey through all manner of topics, losing most of those listening in the process. The wife and I did notice a few things though.
He talked about how when he was a kid he had neighbors who had a nice boat and would go waterskiing every Sunday, instead of going to Church. He talked about how he used to wish he was them, when his parents were taking him to church every Sunday, and now the children from that family are grown up, none of them attend Church and they never come and visit their parents any more either.
I found this rather funny, since I never had the option as a kid not to attend Church - Well at one time I thought I did, and I told my parents that I thought it was cool that I did, and it ended in an argument with them telling me that if I wanted to live under their roof, it would only be if I followed their rules, and I didn't have the option not to attend Church... OK. So I went from attending Church willingly to attending it by force, and there is a difference.
Anyway, but I don't visit them anymore, I would rather they didn't visit me (which they don't) and I don't really go to Church any more. Hmmmmm. Guess something must have messed up the formula.
Next he talked about doubts... Hey! I have doubts!! And then he explained why I have doubts. From his vast experience - and being in the high council, you know he possesses special knowledge about life. People who have doubts only have doubts as a result of sinning.
OK, now that's just plain laughable!!! Actually my doubts were born out of a period of my life, when I felt an overwhelming desire to be as perfect as I could. I read as much Church literature as I could, attended all my meetings, magnified my callings, worked for the Church, scripture study and morning and evening prayers, 10% tithing on my gross income, plus more, in case by some mistake I cheated God, and $100 in fast offerings every month after I fasted for 24 - 30 hours. I was busting my butt trying to be as righteous as I could, but the more I studied Church History, the more doubts I had, and the more doubts I had, the more righteous I tried to be until one day it all crumbled around me. Interestingly I can remember exactly when it happened too. I'd just been called to fulfill a rather high up calling, and the bishop told me why he's chosen me (Which was funny, since he was wrong about me, and had previously claimed that God had called me.)
Anyway, his final point was a plea for us to be active in the Church. I had pretty much turned off at this point, but the Mrs. nudged me and asked if I noticed the problem. You see he was talking about how he was raised in an inactive home, and how his parents weren't very righteous, and never went to Church and his Dad only ever went to the temple for weddings... blah, blah, blah...
Cast your eyes back to my first point... The one where his parents told him that he needed to go to Church, and not go water-skiing like his neighbors, and yet here he was talking about how he was raised by parents who never really went to Church.
I'm as big a hypocrite as the next guy, often even bigger, but I get really torqued when a guy claims moral high ground, then resorts to blatant misrepresentations of the truth to make his point.
And then I get kind of annoyed when people talk about the reasons why people leave Mormonism. It's not because I sinned, and it's not because I want to sin, and it's not because I couldn't hack it, because it is far easier to live a lie and remain in Mormonism, that it is to leave it, especially in Utah, and when you come from a family of active observers of the faith.
Anyway, so there's the report on Church yesterday. I then taught my Sunday School lesson, which could probably spew a whole series of posts in and of itself, and then I went swimming - and swimming rocked!!
You taught Sunday School?! Do tell!
ReplyDeleteIt's Youth Sunday School. I've probably taught it 8 out of the last 11 years.
ReplyDeleteMy rule is that I keep the lessons short, fun and relatable and references to blind obedience, and follow the prophet are not included in my lesson plan.
It'll likely be the last calling I hold. I think the Bishop knows this too, hence the reason I haven't been released yet. I do however have a rather strict team teacher, and there are often little "Just popping in" visits from various leaders.
This week it was why Ezra T. Benson was a great example to follow. When one of the kids brought up how Obama was worse than Hitler, it reminded me of why I teach....
Hi Koda,
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure how I stumbled onto your blog one day a few months ago, but I keep coming back because I like your style and your writing.
At any rate, I'm an evangelical Christian who thinks the LDS church is a false religion and that its claim to have anything to do with real Christiantity is totally one-sided.
That said, your post today reminded me of the futility of trying to follow God's law, according to the Bible. God demands perfection and he created the Law as a way to show us that we aren't perfect and that anyone who tries is going to fail miserably (Romans 3:19-23). That way, when we realize that we're stuck, we'll accept salvation on God's terms -- a free gift. God doesn't want our good works. He wants us to fall on our knees before Him in gratitude when we realize that He's done it all for us through Christ. Not the Christ that the LDS church teaches, but a man who's also fully God who took our punishment for us and offers us a place in heaven if we accept his offer.
Every other religion in the world -- in macro terms -- teaches that people have to strive through good works of some sort to achieve heaven/nirvana/whatever. Christianity is the only religion that teaches that God came to us because we'll never be good enough on our own. That's why I think it's true, because anything invented by men would have us somehow able to be good enough, because in our pride we think we are. A religion invented by God would have Him coming to redeem us because He can see how far wrong we are about ourselves.
Thanks for your honesty. I've enjoyed reading your stuff.
Thanks Eve,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your comments and readership! It's quite an ego boost anytime someone reads and comments on something I've posted.
You referenced real Christianity and how the LDS Church isn't a part of it, and I've always found that to be a rather interesting topic.
I have a good friend who is an atheist who looked more into this claim once he left the LDS Church, and from what he shared in a post some years ago, it ends up going back to the Nicean Creed and how God and his son were defined. Based on that, you're right that Mormonism and mainstream Christianity are exceptionally different, although both do have what appears to be a claim on belief and worship of God and his Son. Just with different definitions, roles and associated beliefs.
Up until I read that though, I was convinced that Mormons were Christian, because they do believe in Jesus Christ but the concept of why that would be anything different from the traditional concept of Christianity never really crossed my mind.
Can I offer perhaps a slightly different paradigm though...
It's always bothered me with Mormons, traditional Christians and some Muslims I've met as well, that there seems to be this overwhelming theme of "We're just not good enough." With Mormonism and other religions which teach perfection as a means to attain a God like state, it seems they teach about man's infinite potential, but it's still over-shadowed by a "You're just not good enough" type of thinking.
Now this is just my opinion, and I based it on the relationship that I have with my children.
What if life isn't about either needing to be saved, or needing to prove our worthiness to God?
What if there is no such thing as sin in God's eyes?
What if the entire earthly experience is just that... An experience. A chance to learn and grow, a chance to learn respect for our fellow beings and to learn more about ourselves.
As I look at my kids, my love for them isn't conditional on how they act, or what they do, it's unconditional. They could turn 18, leave home and never speak to me again, but it wouldn't change how I feel about them, or any reward I may have for them, when I depart this life.
I used to think I wanted a little army of robot children who were completely obedient to everything I said, but there really isn't any joy to be had in that, unless of course you have some kind of sick control freak mentality.
I want my kids to experience life to it's fullest. Obviously I encourage them to live a good life, and treat others with respect, but my greatest wish for them is to reach their potential and experience all that they can.
I tend to think that if there is a God, that he might likely take that same approach with us. I don't think he micromanages us, or our environment. I think that he likely sits back and lets us learn and grow for our own benefit.
Hi again!
ReplyDeleteI'm not a parent yet, though my husband and I hope to be soon. I do, however, agree with your illustration about God. Or, rather, the Bible agrees with your illustration, in part.
God loves us as His children and His love for us is unconditional. I think he gives us children as way to teach us how he feels about us.
He wants nothing more than to spend eternity with us. Jesus explains this feeling in Luke with the parable of the prodigal son -- the kid left, spent all his money, came home with nothing, and was welcomed like a king simply because of the love the father had for him. That's how God feels about us.
There's another parable in Luke about the lost sheep. There were 99 sheep safe but one had wandered off, and the shepard dropped everything to find that sheep. That's how much God longs for us. He longs for me, and he longs for you. He desires you, and he's pursuing you.
The problem is that we don't want to spend eternity with him. That's what hell is, simply put. It's eternity apart from God. It's our choice. We are the prodigal children who have left home. God's waiting to welcome us back, as soon as we turn to him.
And he's made it pretty easy. For a God who cannot tolerate imperfection in his presence, because of His divine nature, He really went out of his way to allow a fallen, imperfect humanity to spend eternity with him. He sent his own son to live the perfect life he demands, then he had his son bear the punishment that we've earned, and now he transfers the reward for a perfect life to our account, if we ask for it.
You're right that God doesn't micromanage us. We're not robots. Like you said, there's no joy in perfectly obedient robot children. But we were given a choice to live freely with God (the garden of Eden), and we failed. In response to that failure, God sent Jesus to redeem us.
While my wife and I are huge proponents of "WAIT!!!!" when it comes to having kids, I wouldn't give mine up for the world. Good luck if you make that leap!
ReplyDeleteI think we're on the same page for about 95% of this. Here are the two things I have trouble reconciling in my mind though.
A God who cannot tolerate imperfection in his presence, because of His divine nature
And then the idea that we failed in the Garden of Eden.
I think my struggle with the first is the definition of imperfection. I mean, we all make mistakes, but why does there have to be a punishment attached, and why does someone else have to pay for it, and why can't God tolerate it? What is it about divine nature that makes a supreme being vulnerable to being in the presence of someone who may not be on quite the same spiritual level?
I mean, I understand the concepts of justice, but I think it's more the product of man trying to deal with the mistakes of others and an attempt at corrective behavior, and then projecting that image onto God, than anything else.
And the second idea is that someone this life is a test to see if we really are good enough because of past failures.
I just struggle with the whole concept of sin and who defines exactly what it is, since it seems to be a moving target, based on varied interpretations of scripture and the whims of religious figure heads.
I have a lot of thoughts on this, so they may not be totally organized here.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, (and I can only speak as an outsider looking in on this one), I can see how you might struggle with the idea of sin as a moving target because you come from an LDS background.
We're talking about a religion that was invented by men and is continually tweaked by its leaders, so of course the expectations keep changing.
God's law doesn't change. It hasn't changed since he gave it to Moses in the form of the 10 commandments. What's more, God's law is the same stuff we know innately to be wrong no matter our culture or upbringing or when we lived.
We all know that lying is wrong, and I'd wager that pretty much every single person who has ever lived has lied.
At that point, I'm a sinner and I am unworthy of his presence. God says in many different places in the Bible that anyone who sins deserves eternity apart from him. That's the punishment.
God hates sin and he demands perfection. I'm afraid I can't put it in words any better and have to fall back on something akin to "it is what it is." That's God's nature. He tells Moses in Exodus 3 to turn away when He passes by, because no one can see His glory and live. It's not for his sake that we must be perfect, it's for our sake.
It's also his nature to love me unconditionally in spite of my sin.
I think I read something once that said that the LDS church teaches that Adam and Eve disobeying God in the garden of Eden was supposed to happen, or that it wasn't all bad, or something to that effect.
Genesis is pretty clear that it was bad. From then on, humanity was under a curse and banished from the garden. Our relationship with God changed at that point and needed fixing.
Even if a person doesn't believe the Bible is true or doesn't believe in God, we know the world we lived in is a messed up place, and that people are messed up. That's the curse, the result of disobedience to God.
Sin isn't drinking alcohol or coffee or not going to church. It's also not a matter of interpretation. Romans 1 says that we're all without excuse, which means that we all know that we have lived imperfect lives. Thus, we all need a savior.
No worries! I'm the king of disorganization. I think I got what you were saying though. My response is likely pretty disorganized as well, but hopefully I can tie it all together at the end.
ReplyDeleteThe LDS Church of today is a far cry from the original organization.
In my opinion what happened was a man had a sublime spiritual experience and wanted to share it with others. Some how that morphed into a religion, and then continued to go awry, both in the religion and in his personal life. In someways it's improved with the removal of actively practiced polygamy and racial discrimination, and in other ways it's taken a turn for the worse as leaders try to stipulate every possible sin and mandate a very exact lifestyle for it's members.
With that said however, most Mormons are very sincere people who are doing their best to live the way they think they should, and while I personally disagree with many of the decisions the current leadership makes, the organization does do a great deal of good as well. It is however as you stated, an organization invented by man, and continually tweaked by it's leaders - independent of the influence of a form of deity.
Hopefully I don't offend you by my next comments, but here's how I view other religions in general.
With few exceptions, I would say that most members of religious organizations belong either by tradition or by a genuine desire to do the right thing. And in many cases it's a combination of both. Desiring to do the right thing, and the right thing being defined by the way in which they were raised.
In my opinion, there is no one true religion on the earth, they are all man made organizations, which may or may not have the best of intentions, but at the end of the day, it's just a group of people taking a guess at trying to understand the universe.
One of the great benefits I have gained from my disaffection with Mormonism is the ability to question everything.
With Mormonism, there are a lot of principles which rely on each other to support the claim that it is God's one true religion. The first leader translated an ancient record by the gift and power of God, and so if that ancient record is true, then he must have gained the power to translate it from God and thus be a true prophet. The record he translated itself even contains a reference to a future translation of itself by a person by the same name of the person who translated it, and so it all rests on itself.
Unfortunately when you based something on a foundation which rests on itself for evidence, when one part of the foundation crumbles away, it takes the rest of it out as well.
Not only did I have the opportunity when that happened to me to question everything about the religion and religion in general. I was able to question absolutely everything. This included the idea that the bible is the word of God, that Jesus Christ was an actual being in the history of the world, and that God and Christ, or the idea of the holy trinity exist too.
As a result of questioning and researching as much of this as I could, all with the possibility in my mind that it could all be false I've come to discover some stuff for myself.
ReplyDeleteI don't intend to pass this off as truth, nor do I wish to encourage others to believe the same. These are just things I've come to believe through a great deal of study and prayer/meditation.
1. People are inherently good. Religion seems to be what drives a great deal of the evil in this world. Prop 8, 9/11 and the Crusades are prime examples.
2. There is no such thing as sin. Sin is a concept concocted by men to make other men feel inferior and unworthy. The LDS Church takes this concept to a sickening extreme, but it is present in most religions. Sin motivates people to feel guilt and inferior to others, and as a result they desire to join a group to feel better about themselves and donate money to the group. I don't know of a religion which doesn't ask for donations, but I could be wrong. I maintain that salvation cannot be bought and should be available freely to all, religiously affiliated or not.
3. The Bible, Book of Mormon, Bagavadgita, Quran and other religious texts contain a great deal of inspirational material and can provide the reader with the opportunity to learn more about themselves, their relationships to others and on how to live a better life.
That said however they aren't necessarily God's word. From what I have discovered, the bible is merely a reincarnation of ancient stories rebranded with slightly different names and concepts. It has it's roots in the ancient religion of the Egyptians, Paganism and Astrology. That isn't to say we can't learn from it, but I think there is real danger in considering the book either a literal history, or the absolute word of God, because it is neither.
If I could explain my thoughts on it a little further...
The story of Adam and Eve is about rebelling against social convention and questioning everything including God. It comes with a great deal of pain and suffering, but it also comes with the opportunity to experience the world and make our own destinies. Many Mormons, Christians, Muslims and others live in Paradise. God has given his word, and they perform a prescribed set of rituals in order to regain his presence. It is only by questioning those rituals and the beliefs of the organization of a whole that we can begin our own journeys in search of our destinies.
I'll finish with the story of Jesus... The story of Jesus is about finding our true selves.
When Moses asked God who he was in Exodus 3:14, God responded...
I am who I am.
God is the great I am.
Look in the mirror and ask yourself who God is, and then say those words...
I am who I am.
To put it in other words
I think, therefore I am
In later scripture when asked by Nicodemus, Christ responded in John 3:5
I am the way, the truth and the light.
For us to return to God, we need to know the way and the truth, and we need to seek the light.
Truth can only be found within ourselves. We find Christ within ourselves, when we find our true selves, and then we are able to find the way to further truth and light.
That's just my opinion though.
I think the worst thing we can do in this life is to prevent another from finding that inner truth, by encouraging them to seek for the answer to lifes eternal questions outside of themselves.
While the bible, religion and religious leaders may all be useful in our journey, they are not the answer to our destination. That only lies within each of us.
Wow, lots of introspection today! Funny, I'm not sure I agree with the last post... I'll take it point by point:
ReplyDelete1. People are inherently good -- This is one of the typically Mormon beliefs I like best, and if I'd been raised with it, maybe I could hold on to it awhile, but I don't know... deep down, I don't feel it yet. I'm very suspicious of people and their proclivity to do the wrong thing when they can get away with it, or when their need to satisfy some inner need or GREED becomes more powerful than any leaning toward "good." One of the reasons I am so down on organized religion right now is that it provides so many opportunities for good people to go wrong, and given enough opportunities, someone will. Every time.
Just my opinion, though, and I'm willing to concede it is more influenced by my life experiences than any real evidence. I'm even hoping someday I can put some stock in the "people are good" argument. I don't agree with this belief now, but I'm hoping to someday!
2. "No such thing as sin." See #1, lol. In reality, despite my Christian beliefs, I don't dwell on sin much. We keep it pretty simple here; God is Love. We all want to stay near Love. When we do things that are not Love, that pull us away from feeling Love, we feel bad. The more things we do, the further away we get, the worse we feel. So we work on Love! I'm sure I won't get a Theology of the Year award for it, but it works for us, it kind of sums up a lot of the "In the beginning was the Word" and "Jesus is the Light" stuff in a way we understand, agrees with the good stuff in other major religions, and heck... if all the God and religion stuff turns out to be baloney, it's STILL a good way to live life. Who doesn't want to be surrounded by Love, during this life OR beyond?
Continued,
clink
Well, that's a new one for me... I exceeded the character limit! Sign I should write my own darned blog? Not yet! Here's the rest:
ReplyDelete3. "Bible isn't God's word." We probably agree more than not on this point, but the semantics are in the way. I'll clarify my view: Is it God's Word? Not the take-everything-literally kind of God's Word, no... pretty easy to figure that out with a studious look at it. Most devout, well-educated Bible scholars from a variety of denominations DON'T believe it is literal, a surprise to many who sit in conservative pews every Sunday.
Like it or not, God's Word had to be passed down orally for generations by flawed human beings influenced by only the culture they knew; transcribed only centuries later by flawed MEN (yes, a sticking point of mine) with their own cultural, educational, gender etc. biases (yikes, a new thought: what if one of those scribes were gay??? Wow, I may have opened a can of worms I didn't even know was in the room!); reviewed by more men and selected from a whole bevy of similar works to become... the only (and LAST) literal and true words God ever spoke? Seems unlikely.
And yet... KNOWING how flawed the transmission was can make it all the more special. The truth is, when compared to other ancient texts, in a historical sense the Bible is incredibly consistent from century to century... much MUCH more than the LDS church usually concedes (especially when compared to how much the Book of Mormon has changed in the few years it has been around!). Non-Christian historians give it a thumbs-up for this.
I've got to cut this short (Yippee, they cried!) but my thought is... no, it is not literally God's Word. But if God is real, and we admit we don't understand a thing about Him/Her/It except that He(etc.) is in a spiritual realm way outside our understanding, AND that He seems to allow humans an awful lot of latitude with their free will and such... to me the miracle is that so much good, world-changing stuff DID survive man's free-will efforts to preserve it. And it's not unfathomable to me that God is powerful and smart enough to get His main points across.
What are those main points? Ah, I'll leave you to your thoughts on that, the orthodontist awaits (aren't I a little old for orthodontia?).
Enjoying the blog and thoughts it provokes, as always!
; )
clink
I think I'm on board with most of that. I'm still in the midst of my "Is there actually a God" struggle, but I like how you view him.
ReplyDeleteQuick thought on men being inherently good. I wonder if perhaps most of our motivation for doing good has been changed from our natures to doing it because we're supposed to, and/or because God wants us too?
I think greed (which is likely culturally introduced) may play into decision too, but if you were to offer the average person the opportunity to make a decision between something which injures another human and helps them, I would think the results we end up on the help side of things more often than not.
If there's no such thing as sin, would you then say that everything we do that we label as good/bad is relative? Or are there things that we as humans can all agree are bad/evil?
ReplyDeleteI think men are inherently evil. If they're inherently good ... 1. how would we know, since there's no such thing as sin? 2. why is it that we have to teach children not to be selfish/not to steal/not to lie, etc. -- these things come inherently, while sharing, generosity, etc., need to be taught.
I think we're dealing with 2 separate things here...
ReplyDeleteSin - to offend God by engaging in behavior contrary to his laws
Bad vs Good Behavior, which boils down to what we do and it's effect on others. If what we do infringes on the freedom of another, then that is wrong.
Unfortunately with sin, too many different people define it too many different ways, and they all attribute it to God.
Back in Moses' day if you walked more than a specified number of steps on the Sabbath, ate shellfish or had contact with a menstruating woman then you had committed a grievous sin. Fortunately we live in a different time.
I'm hoping my comments didn't offend you, but I think you've pretty summarized my major problem with Christianity in all it forms and a few of the other religions out there too. Namely that men are inherently evil and that that no matter what we do we're unworthy of God. Even if you disagree with my lack of belief in God or the Bible, you have to admit, that it's a rather negative approach to take to life...
I think that men will create God in their own image (and in that sense, yes, morality IS relative). Not the other way around. My two cents. :)
ReplyDelete"I think men are inherently evil. If they're inherently good ... 1. how would we know, since there's no such thing as sin? 2. why is it that we have to teach children not to be selfish/not to steal/not to lie, etc. -- these things come inherently, while sharing, generosity, etc., need to be taught."
ReplyDeleteMen are inherently evil? Wow. That's really sad. So the "proof" for this way of thinking is that people have to be taught not to be selfish, steal etc. But do people also have to be taught how to love? Are we really that pessimistic about the human condition? No one taught me how to love my husband. No one taught me how to love my daughter. So by that same logic, I am inherently good. Don't you see how all of this is all up to perception?
Maybe humans aren't inherently good or evil, is that you're trying to say? If so, it's an interesting point.
ReplyDeleteIn the animal kingdom, we don't judge a bird for "stealing" a worm away from another, or a lion for "killing" its prey, and from what little I know, they don't judge each other for it either. So how did we humans wind up living to a scorecard? And why?
Feeling a little stupid for never having followed this train of thought before...
; )
clink
Thanks Hypatia & Clink!!
ReplyDeleteI think in stating that humans are either inherently good or bad, that we need to include that being inherently good, does not guarantee always making the right decisions - there's a human factor which needs to be included as well.
I think generally though, when a human is left to it's own devices, without influences from religion or culture, we'll generally choose to help each other out more often than put each other down. Religion and culture both seem to influence these decisions though, both for good and bad.
Clink - I'm not sure stupid is the right word though... Obviously we all have a lot to learn, different perspectives to view, harmful traditions to discard and new ideas to consider. My major motivation for creating this blog was to try and encourage that thought process, more for myself than anyone else, and I really, really appreciate you and everyone else who comments and offers their ideas, since even if I disagree, they still help shape the process.
On the topic of good though, you might find the following blog post by Rabbi Rami interesting...
http://rabbirami.blogspot.com/2009/12/how-do-you-define-what-is-good.html