I watched a video yesterday... I'll include the link at the end.
When I was a teenager, periodically our local Mormon congregation would hold a standards night. I actually looked forward to them, hoping for some kind of guidance as to how far I could go with a girl. I'm not sure if it was good or not, but those specific clarifications never came.
The evening was generally spent talking about modest clothing and threats that Satan was going to get us.
At the conclusion of my first "Standards Night", we were all handed a bundle of pamphlets, tied together with a ribbon. On of those pamphlets was a print version of a sermon performed by a Mormon apostle. It was entitled, "To Young Men Only". I read the entire thing, hoping to find out the key descriptions of how far I could go.
I should probably add at this point, that as a rather unpopular, shy and buck toothed teenager, my chances of finding a girl who would actually want to go some way with me, was little more than a pipe dream... But I always have, and always will be an optimist!!
Anyway, the book included descriptions of little factories and machines, and all I really remember was the theme over and over again that masturbation was evil and of the devil, and if I engaged in it, I was going to go to hell.
That is about all I remember of the pamphlet. Masturbation = Evil = You'll go to hell = Just another reason why my self-esteem as a teenager was shot to hell.
Anyway, but back to the video at hand...
It included a section from this talk, which I don't recall reading, but I check online, and is indeed there.
Here it is... From the mouth of a man who claims to speak with God, receive revelation for the entire earth and be a special witness for Christ (You know Christ... The guy who taught to turn the other cheek and stuff like that...)
Not only that, but this little speech has no doubt passed through Correlation - the committee that makes sure that everything these (so called) mouth pieces for God say, is politically correct and in harmony with the Gospel.
And so with that in mind, mouth piece of God and Harmony with the Gospel of Christ - again - Christ, the guy who taught, love your neighbor and do unto others as you would have them do unto you - I present the following excerpt from "To Young Men Only"
This power is ordained for the begetting of life and as a binding tie in the marriage covenant. It is not to be misused. It is not to be used prematurely. It is to be known between husband and wife and in no other way. If you misuse it, you will be sorry.
Now a warning! I am hesitant to even mention it, for it is not pleasant. It must be labeled as major transgression. But I will speak plainly. There are some circumstances in which young men may be tempted to handle one another, to have contact with one another physically in unusual ways. Latter-day Saint young men are not to do this.
Sometimes this begins in a moment of idle foolishness, when boys are just playing around. But it is not foolishness. It is remarkably dangerous. Such practices, however tempting, are perversion. When a young man is finding his way into manhood, such experiences can misdirect his normal desires and pervert him not only physically but emotionally and spiritually as well.
It was intended that we use this power only with our partner in marriage. I repeat, very plainly, physical mischief with another man is forbidden. It is forbidden by the Lord.
There are some men who entice young men to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist.
While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done.
After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, "I hit my companion."
"Oh, is that all," I said in great relief.
"But I floored him," he said.
After learning a little more, my response was "Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn't be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way"
I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.
There is a falsehood that some are born with an attraction to their own kind, with nothing they can do about it. They are just "that way" and can only yield to those desires. That is a malicious and destructive lie. While it is a convincing idea to some, it is of the devil. No one is locked into that kind of life. From our premortal life we were directed into a physical body. There is no mismatching of bodies and spirits. Boys are to become men --masculine, manly men --ultimately to become husbands and fathers. No one is predestined to a perverted use of these powers.
I fully admit that I used to like the idea of gay-bashing. When I was 19, I was running to catch the last train home for the night, and I ran right into a gay couple making out. They did nothing to me, and probably didn't even know I was there, but the experience fill me with rage.
They had offended me, pushed the perverted lifestyle on me, and with the power of God residing in every fiber of my being, by god I was going to have my revenge.
I'm a different person now. Grateful that I never acted out on those initial feelings, but at the same time, still incredibly remorseful that I ever had them.
In my writings I've only been able to alluded to my personal experiences surrounding gay-bashing. It continues to be a difficult thing for me to deal with personally. I don't think I ever will wright about it publicly.
ReplyDeleteRight now I feel angry that you did admit to feeling such homophobia and even liked the idea of gay-bashing. But, I'm also very happy that you're remorseful and glad you never carried out your revenge. I would have had a much harder time forgiving you if you had.
Thank you TGD, and if I might apologize to you personally for ever harboring such feelings. I am truly, truly sorry.
ReplyDeleteI look back at the person I used to be both in terms of this topic and the was I used to look at those who were down on their luck, homeless and that kind of thing, and it repulses me.
I hate who I was as a Mormon.
Urban Koda -- The most important thing is that you're speaking out against homophobia now. You are striving to be a more enlightened person now than you were in the past.
ReplyDeleteThis was a very good post, by the way!
Thanks Ahab... Although I don't feel like I should accept any accolades because of it. Just passing along something which shocked and disturbed me, and I'm wondering if this may be the final nail in the coffin of my membership...
ReplyDeleteI may draft a resignation letter later today.
I don't have a problem with gay people, I just have a problem when they try to hit on me, I say I'm not interested, and then get accused of being a bigot or a homophobe. That happened to me twice.
ReplyDeleteOf course I find accusations like that being born of ignorance because there's a clear distinction between, "I feel you're free to do as you choose, but any physical and spiritual consequences are yours to face," vs, "ZOMG don't touch me 'cause you've got cooties and you're gonna die and go to hell and all gays should be shipped off to Death Valley before they all give us AIDs!"
And while I'll definitely get flak for this, I have to call anyone, gay or straight, who claims that they "Don't have a choice," a weakling because that's just an excuse to deny oneself their power of making their own decisions. Regardless of one's sexual orientations or urges, it's entirely possible to take control over them and not act out. As a lecturer at a seminar once told me, "Lack of sex has never been a cause of death."
And as for the "Where's the line?" question, I was expecting to hear that during my teenage years as well. Now that I'm older, somewhat wiser, and have been through a relationship, my ex and I decided at the time that we would be the ones to draw and set the line. It's sadly ironic on how the gospel teaches self-reliance and discipline but so many Mormons expect the church to tell them what to do.
I confess I have some homophobic feelings -- PDA between two guys often makes me feel a little "Eww" -- but I've never understood the rage it brings out in some people. Where does that come from?
ReplyDeleteIn Packer's case, the more I read the more I feel that he's terribly afraid of his own homosexual feelings, that he's always felt just one strong temptation away from "turning gay." (And he projects that onto everyone else, without realizing that most boys and men 1] aren't particularly tempted by the idea of gay sex and 2] won't "turn gay" even if they experiment as adolescents.)
So is that always where the rage comes from? Is it always from the (perhaps unconscious) threat they feel to their identity as heterosexuals? Or are there other factors at work too?
"PDA between two guys often makes me feel a little "Eww""
ReplyDeleteAnd it's comments like that which remind me every day that I'm not in friendly territory in this world. Such double standards.
It's the gay's that must conform to the hetero-centrist life, we are the ones who "must" engage in things that disgust us just so that we can appear respectable or even to save us from harm.
Dave,
ReplyDeleteIME, both personal and observed, gay guys who get shot down by straight guys don't get mad if they're shot down with politeness and kindness. (You know, the way you'd try to shoot down unwanted attention from a woman.) Just something to think about.
As for the "weakling" part, well, ask yourself if you could live like this before you toss around words like "weakling." No, no one has ever died from lack of sex (not directly, anyway, although frequent ejaculation reduces your risk of prostate cancer). But living an entire lifetime with neither love nor even the hope of love, which is what the church expects from its gay members, is clearly detrimental to happiness and mental health.
I think in Mormonism, there is this unwritten thinking that if a guy hits on you, somehow it's an attack from the adversary or something.
ReplyDeleteI would have been offended in the past, but I think now, I'd simply be flattered. A polite decline is probably all that is needed, and I suspect that just like me... Trying to pursue someone who just isn't into me that way, would be a complete waste of time.
With respect to PDA... I can see where Kuri is coming from, however, the most heart-warming experience of the last month, was down at the BKP protest in Salt Lake. I was worried that being in unfamiliar surroundings would freak me out, and part of my reason for attending, aside from the need to show support for the LGBT community, was to try and rid myself of that fear.
Observing interactions between men and other men and women and other women however, discomfort was the last thing on my mind. There is something about seeing genuine affection and closeness between two people that just makes me want to smile.
Granted, there was not full on making out, but that kind of thing is a little icky for me when it's between two heterosexuals as well.
Dave, I'm going to disagree with your 'weakling' assessment as well.
ReplyDeleteIf there is indeed a God, why on earth would he insist that his children forgo the pleasure that is sex, not to mention the even higher ranked feeling of loving and being loved.
He wouldn't.
TGD,
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry that my comment was hurtful. I should have made it clear that I regard my homophobic feelings, not gay guys who engage in PDA, as the problem. It's something I'm not proud of. I think gay guys and everyone else have a perfect right to engage in PDA. I don't think I have any right to tell other people what to do so I never have to feel "Eww" at their PDA.
I try to be an ally to LGBTQ people. I think my rational mind has come a long way. Sometimes my feelings haven't all caught up. It's something I'm working on.
I believe it's important to discuss our thoughts and feelings honestly. How else can we learn from one another? But I see that these feelings are something I should have spoken of more carefully. I don't think there's any way to speak of them without hurt, but I see that I should have taken more care to try to minimize that hurt as much as possible. I'm sorry.
Let's be fair. I don't know if this is a universal thing among homosexual people, but I once heard a gay man say "y'know how gay sex makes you straight people wince and say 'ewwww'? Well that's how I feel about straight sex."
ReplyDeleteAlso, you're gonna get hit on. It's just gonna happen. Women get unwelcome advances ALL THE TIME. You're a grown up. Just say "no, I don't swing that way" Be respectful. As long as this person isn't forcing him or herself on you, be a decent person and just treat them like you'd treat a member of the opposite sex you aren't attracted to. "Thanks, but no."
Seriously.
As a member--a young, new naive member who had grown up in a non-member conservative family AND AS A BISEXUAL GIRL, I too told myself that gay people should just choose not to give into their feelings.
That's incredibly selfish. And rather privileged, if I might add.
Koda, thanks for this post and for being so honest. I, too, still find myself atoning for at least one thing I did when my good long time friend emailed me and came out. I was new in the church and basically told him that if he was a faithful member he would never choose his sexuality over the truthiness of the gospel. Hell, I had to some degree.
He's since forgiven me, but I continue to kick myself in the ass.
You're not alone. What's important here is that you've changed and are working for the greater good.
<3
Thank you Yuri, Lisa, Koda, for addressing Dave's comment. I'm just too enraged right now to respond to him. I'm going to let it go now and move on.
ReplyDeleteKoda,
ReplyDeleteWhy would you have found it offensive to be hit on? That's the part I've never understood.
Kuri, I think I'd actually welcome it... I'd politely decline any kind of romantic involvement, but I'd love the opportunity to buy the guy a drink and get to know him a little better.
ReplyDeleteNo, I mean back in the day, not now. When you were all into the religion, why would you have found it offensive?
ReplyDeleteMan... I gotta read comments more carefully...
ReplyDeleteI don't know exactly why... Perhaps it's the same reason I get upset when a Jehovah's witness would approach me... Perhaps their proposition was view as a solicitation was viewed as a threat to my beliefs.
I've noticed this a lot with the whole prop 8 thing as well... Mormons get all bent out of shape, that somehow Gay Marriage is a threat to their marriage.
Doesn't exactly make logical sense, but let's be honest here... Does Mormonism make sense anyway?
You ever write a lengthy comment in response to a post that you feel strongly about, only to have the system not accept your comment upon clicking the submit button, because it is too long? And then, the afore mentioned system deletes your well thought out words leaving you without time or energy and a lack of desire to recreate your efforts? And all this time I thought my bishop was the only one on the planet with the balls and/or skill to take my input and set it aside without compunction. Blogspot, like my bishop, like the church, gets it right a lot of the time. But every now and then, with Packer and the "To Young Men Only" being prime examples, our infallible institutions fuck it up...
ReplyDeleteWas there a "To Young Women Only" printing or is the masturbation phenomenon only found among the male population....because that would certainly be a recent phenomenon considering the girls I used to date. Or, is this yet another testimony builder on how effective the church and it's leaders are at selectively distributing revelation and damnation among the saints? And to think I used to pay for this C minus service.....
Well, at least there's always preventative prostate health exercises to assist in taking my mind off of being bitch slapped by something I put so much faith in...blogspot, Bishop, Packer, I'm talking about you!
Thanks for the post Koda....
I'm going to second Kuri. I'd describe myself as very gay-positive, even in my Mormon days, when I would decline attention from men with equanimity and a simple "Thanks, but I'm straight."
ReplyDeleteSo here I am thinking I'm so sympathetic to LGBTI issues and such, and I then I watch an episode of "Queer as Folk". There was a love scene between two guys, and I was very surprised to discover that I found it extremely confronting! And I felt bad about that!
I guess the only explanation I can come up with for my discomfort is that I'm a straight guy, and it's not supposed to turn me on. But it goes without saying that one's own preferences are no basis from which to legislate the behaviour of others.
Oh, and here's an interesting study I found. The subjects who reported the strongest inclinations toward homophobia were also the ones most aroused by gay porn.